Valour given to Arty

[flippyxtrem]

I have been giving arty valour for quite awhile now...the reason I do this is...it makes the arty more accurate...however this in turn has caused FIERCE counter battery battles...that end up with arty versus arty for quite awhile...until the enemy battery is dead or vice versa...then your opponent or yourself...are open game for arty rape...

So the thing being...should we stop this valour for arty? or just keep going how it is?

I dont really have a problem with this...but ive had a few people in the past that dont like it...and makes it unfair to have to buy it like this:

Eight Pounder Cost 650

Upgrade Costs

Valour 1 = 455
Valour 2 = 744
Valour 3 = 1315
Valour 4 = 2235

over 700 bucks to get a decent arty piece...the price to buy a Old Guard...

plus i think this buying is a dis-advantage to the Defender...having to spend more..with less money than the attacker...or does it get balanced out if the attacker buys the same valour arty?

I dont know...brining up ideas here for discussion

Cheers

[[GG]Buxford]

I had no idea higher valour arty units are more acurate!

Wow, I've been missing out on a lot. ;D

[flippyxtrem]

19 views and 2 replys including my own!!

and 3 votes not including Bux's and mine...

REPLY"S PEOPLE!!

You are the NTW MP people!! your views are gold!!

Cheers

[Hoffman]

I've always had as high Valour Arttillery as possible.
If my Artillery isn't accurate, I won't use it. I'll take two more Cavalry instead of wasting time on 5 Guns that can't shoot worth crap.

I don't like getting into Artillery duels, but a 4 Valour 12 Pounder does come in handy, the only problem I've had so far is disadvantagous terrain.

However, if I'm not allowed to make my Artillery more effective, I'm not going to use the bloody stuff. I can use two more Cavalry much more effectively than two Batteries of guns that 1, can't hit the enemy when I tell them to shoot, or 2, have too short of a range and can't be moved to support the attack, because 3, the battery rule.
The only change to Artillery I can think of is elimanating that battery rule used. I personally don't like it, mainly because I end up in an attack, and the one side of my line is getting hit by 5 cannisters of shot, and then a split second later getting hit by 5 12 lb cannon balls.

I know the rule was established to mean that they're the same guns, just different ammo types, the only problem is that they're rarely used as the same guns. And end up becoming two batteries, just really close together.

And its rather annoying for the attacker, because the attacker can't move the Cannister battery, that he spent money on, forward to support his attack, and use his battery of long range to support the attack at the same time. Its all a big waste of money that I could use on two long range pieces, or more troops.
I'd rather just take the long range piece, and use the money otherwise wasted on that Cannister to increase the stats for my troops.

Sorry... my little rant there...

[flippyxtrem]

im sorry I thought moderating a word in your rant was necessary...and rephrasing a sentence...

but your view is very much appreciated ...

Artillery with no valour is still pretty accurate...but it depends how you deploy your arty and what type of arty you buy....12 pounders have long range but are pretty inaccurate it seems...8 pounders are the best for range and accuracey...and 4 pounders are the most accurate in my opinon...but have the shortest range...the valour does help alot but you end up buying a very expensive unit that runs out of ammo quick...and Ive had alot of battles were my valour 1 or 2 8 pounders wiped out a unit of valour 4 12 pounders....ask Ashram he actually asked me what my secret was lol ;D just luck and positioning of the arty I suppose...

as far as attacking and moving your battery...what do you mean by this statement?

can't be moved to support the attack

-what your arty cant move? im confused here...can you just click and it moves? or do you get a glitch?


And its rather annoying for the attacker, because the attacker can't move the Cannister battery, that he spent money on, forward to support his attack, and use his battery of long range to support the attack at the same time

well i understand your frustration but you gotta use strategy...fire and manuever with your artillery...take out the enemy guns...and then you got free game on your opponent...lose the conter battery fight...expect a tough time...thats just the game and how war is...if it was in real life you would have to bring those guns up anyway to fire cannister...computer game or not

I have a good replay of me using a battery while attacking...and i got some 200 kills with my cannister...my advice is you just cant sit there...you gotta move it up to the battle line...and its not like it cant get there...just gotta click and it moves...

thank you again for your view...and if you want that replay...I'll send it to yah over MSN

Well im a guy who doesnt like arty...I hate it...just ask any of the GG's....but I do like the battery rule because it does add alot of strategy and thinking...and some nice realism to the game...plus as ive come to learn...a game aint napoleonic if it doesnt have arty

Cheers

[[GG]ThinRedLine]

Hi,

Just a note here, gentlemen.

The edit to your post Mr. Hoffman was omitting the word 'stupid' in front of the 'battery rule'.

You are free to your opinion and no one can force you to use this rule unless of course the host insists on it.

However, most good hosts will allow for your opinion about the game and will usually be open to playing a game with and then a game without or some other fair compromise.

I like the Battery rule becuase it feels a little more accurate to this period of warfare, but it is not written in stone.

Remember it was crafted to possibly encourage those who want no artillery, to accepot some. The added cost and size was part of the point. Also, in my opinion, long range have too little ammo and cannister has way too much.

I think Flippy just thought that the adjective 'stupid ' in this case might have offended me....hehe

Cheers,


TRL

[flippyxtrem]

that was my thing TRL...you came up with the Battery Rule

dident want you to go all Regimental Emissary on him lol ;D

Cheers

[[GG] Lord Ashram]

Forgive me if I am wrong... the Napoleonic Era is not my speciality compared to ACW and AWI...

But i dont think they ever used the bigger guns by moving them forward to support attacks with cannister.

Maybe the 4lb guns, but because of their range, we already move them forward to support.

But the big guns were never brought up to the front of the lines for cannister support. Cannister was generally used as a defensive tactic when enemies got too close to the guns, which is how the battery rule generally tends to work.

Personally I like the rule; I just wish it didn't take two unit slots, but I think it is worth it.

Ashram

[flippyxtrem]

well actually Ashram...

Artillery in the Napoleonics were these sizes

12, 8, 6, 4, and 3 pounders

Cannon crew and team of horses:
French 4pdr cannon - 8 men crew - 4 horses - 1 wagon
French 8pdr cannon - 11 men crew - 4 horses - 2 wagons
French 12pdr cannon - 15 men crew - 6 horses - 3 wagons
Austrian 6pdr cannon - 13 men crew - 4 horses - ? wagons
Austrian 12pdr cannon - 16 men crew - 6 horses - ? wagons

The horse artillery moved at :
- walk . . . . . 86 m per min.
- trot . . . . . 190 m per min.
- gallop . . 370 m per min.

Often the horse artillery was sent forward against the enemy and on several occassions the gunners were in danger of being surrounded by enemy's cavalry and cut off from own lines. Such cases are described by the French, Russians, British and others.
Of course there is a lot of exagerration and misleading as to who did what.
Napier is a great story-teller and his highly imaginative account of Ramsay's battery exploit is largely invention. According to Napier the entire battery was involved when it was actually only a section, 2 (two) guns. He wrote that the battery bursted through the French chasseurs-a-cheval and "an English shout pealed high and clear, the mass was rent assunder, and Norman Ramsay burst forth at the head of his battery, his horses breathing fire, stretched like greyhounds along the plain, the guns bounded behind them like things of no weight, and the mounted gunners followed in close career.". But actually Ramsay and his gunners did not charge through and outrun French cavalry. Ramsay was with 2 guns and had stopped to fire at pursuing French. They were however over-run and surrounded by the French chasseurs-a-cheval just after they had limbered up. But then they were luckily "brought off by friends", who had seen their plight. The rescuers were couple of hundreds of cavalrymen, (squadron of 14th Light Dragoons and a squadron of the 1st Royal Dragoons). These men extricated the guns and escorted them back. Without cavalrymen the gunners would be cut to pieces by the French attackers.

In some infantry battalions there were Support Guns for attacks...

all that was all FYI

Cheers

[[GG]ThinRedLine]

Hi,

Flippy you forgot the British 9 pdrs!

Also, the horses per gun list are only those actually trailing/pulling the gun and its limber. The limber team as it were. There were far more men and horses serving each gun including extra caisons, wagons etc.

Thanks though good stuff mate!

S!

TRL

[[GG] Lord Ashram]

Right right; I think my point was that the bigger guns (12, 24lb) werent so mobile that they were brought right up to the lines... yes, the smaller guns that could be easily moved were, but they are anyway.

And yes, it does seem like 8lb guns are way more effective than 12lb guns in this game. Is this just my perception? Or can it be backed up by numbers?

Ash

[flippyxtrem]

ya I forgot about the 9pdr and 24 pdr (those were on ships to yes?) and I forgot about the russian unicorn (15pdr)

Cheers

[Hoffman]

I'm sorry, I guess I should have made myself a little more clear, sorry for the usage of 'stupid' but sometimes I get carried away in my language.


What I meant by that was that I can't move my Cannister far from the long range pieces.

Thus They act as one battery, instead of the two batteries that they are.
This I dislike because I look and see Cannister Battery, and I want to send it up front and support the attack, while maintaining the long range bombardment from the heavier guns. But I can't move the Cannister up, because I can't move the heavier guns up, because then I'll forfeigt the advantagous firing position for the heavy guns, but I can't use the cannister.
Its annoying. To me anyways. As the Attacker, unless I get my heavies up close and personal to the enemy, I can't use my Cannister, but the defender can put their heavies up close and use both at the same time. Thus making it 10 cannons, whereas I can only use 5.
I puts me at huge disadvantage unless I use alot of ammo to knock down, or destroy the enemy Artillery.
And then I usually don't have enough ammo to support the attack, but since I have to deploy the Cannister next to the Heavies, and the Heavies are at optimum firing range, instead of close firing range, it takes awhile to move the artillery forward, and then when they get there they are tired, and in no condition to lay down heavy supporting fire.

But since there's the Battery rule of one Battery per team, that virtually every host uses, I can't purchase two batteries, use one for counter-battery fire, and the other to support the attack. I'd take out two more units if I could do that, because having the Extra battery up front to support the attack could be worth two units of Cavalry or Infantry.

Do you see the dillema I'm in?
I can either kill the Enemy Artillery, and some of their Infantry.
Or I can kill a whole bunch of their Infantry, but their Artillery will probably kill my Artillery, and then massacre my Infantry with Cannister.
Gah! There's not enough Guns, but there're too many Guns but not enough and too many!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!!
*Rips hair out*

[[GG]ThinRedLine]

Totally!

Hopefully with NTW II we will have each artillery unit be able to use a 'special' ability to use cannister then this whole thing will be moot.

Just was created as a concept for the use of arty and better representation of how it was on Napoleonic fields etc.

No law that we have to use it and Hosts are typically pretty good about hosting games with and without if asked etc.

Thanks for your opinions and comments Hoffman, they are valuable.

S!

TRL

[flippyxtrem]

yes I see what you mean hoffman...

maybe we should have a thing were if 8 pounders are firing the cannister cant fire...and if the 8 pounders stop firing...the cannister can fire...that plays a better part showing the different usage of ammo...but this sounds way to complicated to implement...

like what TRL said...in NTW 2 the special ability button will hopefully change ball to cannister and vice versa

Cheers